00:06:44 Paul Keil: Hi Bion! 00:30:18 Nolwen: Hi, a real thank you for all of this. I hope that we didn’t talk about it yet (maybe i’ve missed it) : I’ve heard many different story in Nepal when I asked, about what we do with the body of the elephant when he died. I don’t know if you have some informations about it with the texts or some field works (Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, India, Cambodia…) ? And to all the amazing presenters, I would also ask : do you know from what age the elephants are usually trained in your various field works ? Thanks 00:30:34 Paul Keil: [not a question, Kat just a thought for the chat in relation to the figure of 'forest peoples'] Historically In regards to those most intimately associated with working/war elephants, I wonder if we need to begin distinguishing between those who catch and those who care / manage elephants (even if both are referenced as forest peoples). I cant remember if Trautmann makes the distinction... 00:31:06 MIchelle Szydlowski: Nolwen, it is buried in the Chitwan area. No fuss, no muss, no ceremony :) 00:31:42 Anindya "Rana" Sinha: I was also wondering whether, keeping in mind the behaviour of an elephant in musth, depictions of tuskers in musth could perhaps represent single-mindedness of purpose? 00:32:23 Nolwen: Thank you Michelle ! I’ve heard that they dig a big hole in Bardia too, where the elephant dies, but I guess that it’s not possible for the domestics ones.. 00:32:55 Romita Ray: Thank you for three insightful papers. For profs Camp and Menon, can you please comment on how the physical bodies of elephants have shaped architectural design? Do elephants make us rethink how we might calibrate the colossal in architecture (for eg. the Egyptian Hall in London where Chunee’s skeleton was housed, or the height of entry gateways for Mughal architecture designed to accommodate elephants)? Conversely, do the images of elephants convey the “appearance” of the colossal in architecture, i.e. big is made to look grand as we see at the Sanchi stupa or the stupa at Kanagahalli? And a comment for prof Trautmann in response to your compelling question about why elephants persist in India and SE Asia. There’s a very interesting article in the Yale News about this very subject, based on the research of Dr. Advait Jukar https://news.yale.edu/2020/12/08/why-do-elephants-and-tigers-still-roam-india-study-offers-clues 00:33:05 Gilles Maurer: @Nolwen : 00:33:05 MIchelle Szydlowski: The ones that have died while I was there got a big hole in the community forest :( 00:33:38 Easwaran E.K. Dr. Vet: In Musth, the agression is due to high male hormone Testosteron and will be on other male animals and on dominant Mahout. When alcohol is given, it is a sedative from the very low dose itself, but the phychological inhibitions will be the first to get sedataed hence will shoe Dutch courage and perhaps alcohol being and instant source of energy may also increase the work power 00:34:25 Easwaran E.K. Dr. Vet: show Dutch courage 00:34:41 Nolwen: Ok.. So they transport it I guess ! And Michelle, do you know from which age they began to train the little elephants usually ? 00:35:06 Paul Keil: Rana - this is an interesting idea - single mindness interpretation I guess would depend on where we find these representations? Musth has so many varying interpretations - like Easwaran notes as well. I think in the Matanga lila it was lamost reperesented as a vital fluid 00:35:08 Jennie Crawley: Nolwen, in Myanmar training begins usually at the age of 4 (Nov/Dec of their 4th year). I would also be interested to know the age in other countries! 00:35:32 MIchelle Szydlowski: Depends on the availability of staff. Typically 3-5. But some have waited until 7 due to lack of staff. BUT—very few calves born there. Most are imported from India. 00:35:38 Nicolas Laine: They start training juvenile elephant after their weaning period which is about 3-5 years 00:37:13 Gilles Maurer: Death : buried In Laos, sometimes meat also found at the market. Some rituals as usual in Laos. Regarding training at 3 to 4 y.o. in December/january 00:38:01 Alex Greene: 3-5 years also in northern Thailand 00:38:43 Khyne Mar: Typically the calf can be tamed/trained any age when they are independent to mother..At the time of training calf must be weaned/ mobile enough to travel to -fro foraging ground/ his or her digestion is mature enough to digest forage..And most importantly in good body condition.. 00:39:03 Jennie Crawley: I have found it hard to find information about taming age in India, for captive-born elephants rather than captured elephants, does anyone know more information about in India? 00:39:08 Paul Keil: I have questions - does the genesis of elephant capture training matter? Whether it was forest people or directed by Kings? (Maybe historically elephant relations has always been in flux, forest peoples recruited by KIngs, then forest peoples surviving with elephants after kingdoms fall, and then forest mahouts taking advantage of their elephant skills with new kingdoms) 00:39:50 Paul Keil: Is the question of the genesis of domestic/captive working relations only ever going to be speculator? 00:40:01 trish: I have seen burial ceremonies in Nepal 00:40:06 Paul Keil: *speculatory 00:40:15 kat: Question queue (so far) 1. Romita Ray 2. Paul Keil 00:41:48 Phalke Sagarika: I just wanted to ask the panelists what they thought about how the historical functionality of elephants has shaped modern elephant management practices? This is in context to traditional knowledge being passed down from generations of mahouts 00:43:26 kat: Question queue (so far) 1. Romita Ray 2. Paul Keil 3. Phalke Sagarika 00:44:17 Nolwen: Wonderful, thank you all ! (: 00:44:58 Anindya "Rana" Sinha: Thanks, Romita, for that reference. Here is a brief review of Prof Trautmann’s paper of 1982 on the war elephant and the Maurya, reviewed by my friend and environmental historian, Mahesh Rangarajan: https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/india-has-kept-its-elephants-but-china-has-only-a-few/cid/1800436 00:45:11 Elizabeth Oriel: Great point about forest cover. Chartier et al. say elephants need 30-40% forest cover in India. 00:47:29 Romita Ray: Thanks Anindya for Mahesh Rangarajan’s Telegraph article/review. Two baby elephants just died in my local zoo (in Syracuse, NY)—makes one wonder about how elephants are being housed in climates so different from their natural climate zones. I’m in a very cold region of the northeast! 00:48:12 Erin Ivory: I wonder if we could look at elephant musth in relation to their management or relationship with their mahout. How much does the management of the elephant impact their behavior during musth? 00:49:59 kat: 1. Paul Keil 2. Phalke Sagarika 3. Erin Ivory 00:50:07 Erin Ivory: The reason I ask is I have two older African bull elephants I work with (which by the way enter periods of musth which extend as long as eight months in length) however, we do not experience aggression from the males during this time. If anything they are drunk and forgetful, rather than demonstrating aggression. 00:51:04 MIchelle Szydlowski: Erin, I know diet and nutrition has a lot to do with it. I imagine your elephants are well nourished and perhaps that helps with musth? 00:51:09 Thakshala Tissera: When considering how the elephant becomes devalued with the decline of the war elephant and the rise of colonial practices such as hunting, does the introduction of large-scale plantation agriculture feature in this de-valuation? 00:52:34 Romita Ray: Wonderful. Thank you. 00:53:58 kat: 1. Phalke Sagarika 2. Thakshala Tissera 00:58:25 Erin Ivory: Michelle, I think my point was these bulls used to demonstrate aggression during musth and those musth periods were shorter. We changed management styles and we do not experience aggression anymore and they hold in musth for longer. Thats why I was curious about the expression of musth with how they are managed. I do not remember which talk or who brought it up, but someone had mentioned they saw a difference between bulls in musth where some you can continue to work with and others where the musth maybe creates just enough change in testosterone to change their behavior to be less willing to cooperate with mahouts and increased behavioral reaction during different stimuli 00:59:28 Erin Ivory: And does the change in how they are managed during this time (chained not given the same ab=mount of access to food, etc) does this create frustration within these bulls leading to aggression? 01:02:54 Easwaran E.K. Dr. Vet: Musth is manifested only when elephant is healthy. Aggression will be towards competing males and dominating mahouts and when they are tied curtailing all movements. Normally it last for 2 to 3 months in Asian elephants. In wild they seem to be wandering in search of receptive females leaving aside proper feeding thus run down in condition and go out of Musth. In captivity due to high nutrition they remain in musth for longer time. 01:03:11 MIchelle Szydlowski: Erin—interesting! Especially that it lasts longer but without issue. I would reach out to the team at the Denver Zoo—they keep a bachelor herd and work with them during musth, also. They might have some data or papers on the different management styles and how they impact behavior 01:07:13 Paul Keil: Easwaran - I understand that wild elephants in musth, compared to captive, do not express themselves so stubbornly and aggressively or maybe even as single-mindedly, as Rana notes. If that is the case, I doubt people would have been so fascinated with musth if they only observed in wild elephants 01:08:13 Alex Greene: One interesting finding of the ethnoveterinary research we did in Thailand is that there is a species of gourd that can be fed to elephants which decreases the period and intensity of musth (same as decreasing food to lower body condition). this gourd probably has a hormonal activity 01:08:34 Romita Ray: Thanks for a fabulous conference. 01:08:43 Ashoka Ranjeewa: Great talks and discussions. Thank you all. 01:08:45 Paul Keil: thank you everyone!! 01:08:52 Erin Ivory: Thank you- fabulous talk! 01:08:59 Thakshala Tissera: Thank you for organizing this very generative event 01:09:00 Jemma Bullock: thanks so much everyone! great wealth of knowledge 01:09:03 Elizabeth Oriel: Thank you conference organizers. and speakers. Amazing. 01:09:05 Madrid, Rebecca: Thank you everyone! 01:09:06 Phalke Sagarika: Thank you everyone 01:09:09 MIchelle Szydlowski: @Easwaran. Yes , I meant good nutrition outside of musth period. So important to limit during 01:09:18 Concepción Cortés Zulueta: thank you for organising such a wonderful conference!! 01:09:59 Easwaran E.K. Dr. Vet: Good night/ Good morning, it was a different experience 01:10:05 Alex Greene: thank you everyone! what a brilliant opportunity for exchange